August 11, 2008

  • Masculine and Feminine Ideals?

    The argument is actually really old.  Used to be people were arguing against single parent households.  I always thought it was sort of odd back then arguing against something that most people didn’t have much of a choice about, in the first place. Arguments against single parent households sounded an awful lot like arguments for loveless marriages of convenience to my ears. Only it sounds much less virtuous when you say it that way doesn’t it?

    I first heard the argument twisted to a new controversy in a Church. Now I don’t go to church very often and I gotta tell you this experience didn’t make me any more gung-ho about attending them. It was either a funeral or a marriage. I can’t remember which. Probably a funeral since I’ve attended far more of those than weddings. But I remember being rather annoyed that the preacher chose this sacred occasion to insinuate his own social beliefs in the discussion. Yeah… I wanted to walk out in disgust. Loyalty prevented me. I tuned him out.

    But before I did, I heard the argument. He was talking about gay marriage. Though he didn’t use that phrase, it was clear by the words he was using what he was talking about the recent controversies revolving around gay marriage. He talked about how marriage was under attack as an institution, how it was being corrupted, and on the verge of turning into something else.  And then he gave the argument.

    I’ve since heard the argument numerous times. On television. In the news. From relatives. In emails.  And most recently I read it in a comment reply to something I wrote on Xanga.

    The argument it goes something like this:

    Children need to be raised with both a Mother and a Father in order to support the ideals of Masculinity and Femininity in the world.

    That’s it. That’s the whole of the argument.

    And you know most arguments against gay marriage are easily shot down as being suggestive of arrogance or bigotry. Most people, I think, by this time are willing to admit that being gay doesn’t make you somehow less capable of parenting or less deserving of raising children if you should so choose to do so. Most people now I think are pretty sold on the idea that being homosexual should afford you exactly the same opportunity to receive exactly the same advantages and disadvantages afforded through the institution of marriage by the state if they so choose.

    Oh sure there are people who still disagree, but I think or hope we’ve gotten to the point where people are ashamed to admit that level or prejudice in public. That’s a good thing.

    And yet this argument remains as one of the last bastions of the people who, in spite of all that, still claim that gay marriage needs to be outlawed and the constitution should be amended to strike the possibility of gay marriage ever becoming a staple part of American life. They cling to this idea of “civil unions” as their salvation, a way to prove they are not *really* being prejudiced biggoted idiots about the whole thing while still singling out homosexuals as the “other” and treating them differently from everyone else. What are you complaining about? They argue. You’ve got your civil unions.

    It reminds me of people saying “What are you complaining about black people? You’ve got your black schools and your black bathrooms and your black busses and your black restaurants! Why do you need in on *ours*?”

    I should hope we had learned our lesson about that. But we clearly haven’t.  I wonder if we ever will?

    But back to the argument at hand. Why does that idea of masculine and feminine ideals carry so much weight with people? Why does it carry on when most other arguments are broken against the cold hard rock of basic logic?

    Perhaps it’s just that we, and by we I mean liberals and progressives like me, are arguing against it in the wrong way. Sometimes we do that. In our urge to reject something that immediately sounds stupid to our ears we don’t take the time to really reason out *why* it is so stupid.

    The classical argument against this “ideals” argument is to basically laugh at it. You say to the person: do you *really* think ideals of masculinity and feminity are threatened in the slightest bit by the existence of Gay Marriages? I mean come on, it’s not like EVERY child will be raised in same sex households. The vast majority will still have a mother and a father whom they know and interact with. Chances are not even every child will know of a child who was raised in a household with two parents of the same gender.

    So quit worrying. That’s our clasiscal argument.

    But you know what? Worry doesn’t disappear nearly that easily.

    I’ve always felt the argument against this assertion should be very different. We shouldn’t say “it’s not going to happen”. Rather, we should say: “so what if it does!”

    Ad that’s really been my feelings about it all along. I say, if so called ideals of masculinity and feminiity vanish thanks to a prevalence of children raised in single parent households or same sex households, then GOOD RIDDANCE!

    I mean what exactly *are* these ideals we are trying to protect? They aren’t real physical differences between men and women caused by genetics or hormones or anything like that, because if they were, there’d BE no possibility of a threat to them due to changes in the way we are raised. So basica reasoning tells me that what we are talking about is social constructed standards of behavior. To put it simply, the idea that Guys “ought” to behave in a certain way and girls “ought” to behave in a different way.

    And you know… I think that’s bullshit.  Who decided? Who said guys shouldn’t do this or that or this other thing? Who decreed that if a girl acts in this way or that way that she’s a failure as a woman? These are traditions that run back thousands of years. But they aren’t necessarily rational traditions. There’s no reason to support them at all really if modern sensibilities determine that they are of no real use.

    And these so called ideals cause harm. I mean real measurable psychological harm in numerous children who are raised to think badly of themselves because they don’t act in accordance with the ideals. A boy who is passive is ridiculed for being too “girly”. A girl who is more aggressive is attacked as a “tomboy”.  There are hundreds of thousands of examples. It’s been a problem long before the current controversy over gay marriage reached the public eye.

    There’s a more general principle at stake here too. The question is to what extent should we cling to the way things are, hold traditions steady and static and demand that they go unchanged? Should we try to force masculine and feminine ideals remain exactly as they were when we were growing up? Why? Because that’s what makes us feel the most comfortable?

    Maybe instead of that we should try letting society develop organically. Things will change. People will change. And what is considered feminine and what is considered masculine will evolve over time too. Actually it always does. It always has been. If you could go back and ask your great grandparents what constituted the feminine or masculine ideal it would be unrecognizable to you. Time changes regardless of what you want it to be. Forcing children to get raised in households with both a  mother and a father won’t really change that. Your children will still perceive things radically differently than you do and their children radically different still.

    You’re fighting the impossible. You’re trying to stand in front of a land slide and hold it back with your two hands. Give it up. The world is changing whether you want it to or not. Instead of trying to make things the way you want, why not try and figure out what’s good in the way things are becoming and try to support those things.Try to teach universal values like tolerance, honesty, virtue, and altruism to your children so that no matter what lifestyle they choose to live they’ll carry with them these principles and use them to create a Just society.

    We can all just be however we want to be, act however we want to act. We don’t need any stupid meaningless ideals to futiley yearn for. Instead let’s make ourselves our model and learn from one another and grow along side one another no matter how we were raised and no matter how we turn out.   And we can through harnessing the knoweldge and experiences of one another all become better people as a result.

Comments (14)

  • I’ll be the first one to say that I’m a proud member of the Catholic faith, that I don’t find homosexuality to be a natural occurence, and that I am leery when it comes to the concept of gay marriages. I could go on and on about the emptiness there is to not have your biological parents. I know it well. I think it’s terribly sad that marriages don’t work out between people, because they don’t suffer the psychological desolation the children do.

    But I also realize that in this country, we say that people have freedom. I don’t consider myself the authority figure on deciding if this gay marriage business is goodly or not. So if they want to, fine. I don’t think it should be outlawed or condoned at all. It should just…be. I realize that’s impossible, though. People want decisions made. At any rate, if these people can raise those kids lovingly and fulfill their needs? I suppose it’s better than what some other parents do.

    Oh, and I think the fact that someone was going on about this at a wedding or funeral is horrid. People need to get off their soapboxes and realize what a jackass they’re being.

  • Try to teach universal values like tolerance, honesty, virtue, and altruism to your children so that no matter what lifestyle they choose to live they’ll carry with them these principles and use them to create a Just society.

    Nephyo for President! 

  • GREAT POST, DUDE!

    I’ve heard this argument only once before… My response? I laughed my ass off, raised an eyebrow and said: “I stand as proof that that’s one of the dumbest arguments that you’ve used yet! I can’t believe that you actually said that to ME, when you’ve known me for this long!”

    I grew up in a two-parent, heterosexual household. I have a mother and a father who were raised by the Catholic church and they’ve been together for over 20 years, 4 children and a helluva lot of life. And look at the way I turned out! I’ve been with lots of guys, and in most of my relationships, I’ve been the more masculine side. When I wasn’t, I can honestly say that I still wasn’t the girl – we were both on the same level. Those were the ones that lasted longer.

    My mother, despite being raised in one of the more machistic of the christian churches, can build a house, drive a tractor, fix a fence and buck hay with the best of them; My father can sew, braid hair, cook and clean, change a diaper, do the grocery shopping, keep a flower garden and whatever else, too. Their roles are not inverted, they just both did both. Quite literally: At some point in my life, they’ve each been a housewife. There is no masculine/feminine, no rational/emotional, no logical/creative, no protective/nurturing… My parents are exactly matched and well balanced. There are some things that my mom can do that my dad can, and vice-versa, but those have more to do with their respective personalities.

     I know that if I ever end up in a long-term relationship, I want it to be what my parents have, with the added bonus of compatable personalities. And I think that more and more people are getting into these evenly matched relationships, and from what I’ve seen, these are the relationships that work out! And, with this knowledge WHY would we try to preserve masculine and feminine ideals? I mean, sure, I like to put on a skirt on occasion and paint my fingernails, but I also like to get my hands dirty and my face greasy and go for beers. And my boyfriend may be a hardcore sports junkie, but he also likes to go shopping and put on eyeliner and drink cocktails.

  • @Laryssa - When I talk about this issue I pretty much ONLY talk about the State issue. There’s a reason for that. I actually don’t have any problem whatsoever with churches and religions being against gay marriage. I don’t.  They can do whatever they want. Whatever their constituents want. And act in accordance with their beliefs.  Strategically I think it’s a bad idea because I think in the long run of history people will tend toward those religions that afford them the most freedom. But who knows. Catholicism and Christianity has certainly survived and evolved a lot without losing most of its fundamental values. There’s no reason not to think that their beliefs about gay marriage won’t last for hundreds of years yet.

    I also don’t talk about the scientific issue of what it means to be homosexual and what causes it. I don’t think that’s a matter of belief or opinion. I think it’s a matter of fact to be determined by science. And people can study it all they want.

    But the *political* issue of whether to allow gay marriage is something I think we can agree on regardless of these two factors.  Because we can all agree that people can and should be free to live their life as they please and seek out their own happiness. The state shouldn’t interfere. It certainly shouldn’t outlaw anything.

    As for the parenting issue, I’m really a great deal more concerned about the many children who don’t have *any* parents than children who lack their biological parents. I’ve certainly known lots of people who’ve been adopted and had a hard time, but there’s plenty of children who have grown up fine and been very happy in adopted households, as well as in single parent households. There’s no reason not to think that living in a household with two parents of the same gender won’t also work out for many many people. Having parents that love you and support you I think is just a generally good thing whoever they are.

  • @nephyo - I think we agree on the important things. Don’t you?

  • @Laryssa - ” I could go on and on about the emptiness there is to not have your biological parents. I know it well.”  I hear you! 

    @nephyo - I am not even going to breech this topic again.  It is a stupid waste of breath.  Morality should not be legislated.  It  pisses me off, I always feel like I am running in circles.  God dammed hamster in a wheel.  Shout all you want to the world we are never going to be free of bigots.  I am tired and I have laryngitis.  This is not the answer.  There has to be another way.  Your attempts are gallant.  I salute you.  But the world is never going to work right humanity is broken.  Sorry.  We need to abandon conventional wisdom about who and what we are if this is ever going to be fruitful.  Ranting again.

    @Edgebreak - You know it is impossible.  How many eons will it take you to learn it Kadmon.  Life in bodies does not work.  Broken Broken Broken! 

  • @lhotsedog - No debate with you today.  I will hold my tongue. Tomorrow my debating will be unfocused.  I will debate the wind then, with much the same effect.

  • @Edgebreak - Feeling better now thanks to AA (not alcoholics anonymous)

  • If you could go back and ask your great grandparents what constituted the feminine or masculine ideal it would be unrecognizable to you.

    I think I want to argue against this, but right now I’m too tired to form the words properly. You have two different topics going on in this post and I’ve tried to separate them and I think that’s addled my brain!  Incidentally, my Baby Brother is gay purely because he was only three when my dad left my mum and, because we didn’t see our dad on a daily basis, he obviously had no male role models to show him the correct way to be a Real Man. 

  • @Katiefinger - well feel free to come back and argue when you are feeling more energy :) I’m always up for an argument. okay well that’s a lie actually but I’m always interested in your arguments, it’s just that when I don’t feel like arguing I’ll just disappear not say anything.

    You’re right that I’m playing sort of fast and loose with language here a little bit. An “ideal” is by definition unchanging over time. So it doesn’t really make much sense to say that our grandparents idea of it was different than our own.  At best we could say that their understanding of the ideal and expression of the ideal differed from our own.

    But anyway, I chalk that up to one of those “you know what I mean” kinda things. But to be perfectly clear, if we want to use the true concept of an ideal, ala in the Platonic sense, then my argument is that there IS NO SUCH THING as an ideal for masculinity and femininity. Maybe there are for things like Justice and Wisdom and Beauty but not masculinity or femininity. I think that’s stupid.

    heh that probably has nothing to do with your objection but just wanted to make it clear I’m aware that what am saying far from constitutes a rock solid logical argument. I wouldn’t submit this as a paper in school. Well I might, if I thought my professor was an ass and wanted to tick him off.

  • Ha!  Argument was probably a very strong term; I meant friendly debate, obviously

    I’ve just spent five minutes typing and deleting and nope!  Nothing is forming!  I should go to bed; it’s very late here! 

  • i think people will say one thing in public(PC).. and think something completely different in private…

    like california… the polls said they were all for gay marriages… but when a law came out to legalize gay marriages….yet, when gay marriage was offered up to vote in california, it got beat.. big time.. 2 to 1 ratio…
    california is what i would call a pretty liberal state.. i mean, come on… Berkeley… San Francisco? a Democrat blue state… it was only with a court order that homosexual marriages are now legal. throw out the votes; they don’t matter. :)

    and regardless of the PC world… whether religious, personal or scientific beliefs… having a dad and mom figure, doesn’t guarantee normal development, but it gives a better chance than not have those two very different role in a child’s development…. as a general rule. There are always exceptions… but for most… it’s true…

    and it doesn’t matter if you were offended by the preacher’s sermon for the kid at the funeral… whoever arranged the ceremony picked him for a reason..and its their funeral to give… not yours… of course, if they didn’t agree with it, i’m sure they gave him a stern reproach about it, lol.

    you sure it wasn’t at a wedding? it sounds something more at a wedding than a funeral, don’t you think?

    at any rate, parental units… or lack of, has a profound effect on a child’s development. it’s silly to think the way the parents are, won’t affect the child in some way.. plain silliness. so whether gay, or straight, or bi or tri or whatever.. it WILL affect the child. it’s just common sense.

    it won’t be the ONLY thing that affects the kid, but it will be a significant part of the child’s development. period.

  • our world is bound to standards. and yes, sometimes what we do concerns of the idealizations about gender….but we really can’t avoid that fact.

    but I think, regaridng on parental issues. it really depends on how a person (whether he/she has gender issues) takes care of his/her growing family.

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