August 23, 2008

  • In Defense of Xanga Whiners

    Once
    upon a time I was a member of a forum devoted to one of my favorite
    games. And on this forum there was a member whose wisdom and knowledge
    of the game was unsurpassed. He was a genius who had studied the game
    down to its most minute details. And he was elegant and persuasive in
    his writing about the game. He had numerous ideas about how to make the
    game better, more balanced, easier to learn, and how to make players happier.
    Now he wasn’t *always* right. Who is? Some of the things he said I
    downright thought wouldn’t work. But everything he said was clearly a
    *good* idea, well thought out and worth taking into serious
    consideration. 

    Well what happened to this amazing forum member?  Well he got banned of course.

    You
    see the forum was the forum of the game manufacturers and there was
    just one thing about this guy that I forgot to mention…

    He could be a royal pain in the ass.

    I
    mean he was blunt. He was rude. He was unyielding and without remorse.
    If he thought something you said was stupid… he said so, and always
    in what was perhaps the most insulting way possible. He didn’t insult
    the people so much, but he would tear apart the idea in such a language
    that made you, the originator, feel like you were less than the scum of
    the earth. And of course he cursed up a storm.

    And
    he never backed down either. He wouldn’t ever apologize. He never
    stopped challenging. If a forum member challenged him on something he
    knew was right, the gloves would come off and he’d be merciless.
    He’d send those poor writers crying home to their mommies. And he was
    no less brutally honest to the developers of the game than he was to
    random forum members. If he thought some decision was really idiotic he
    would question the mental faculties of the person who originated the
    idea.  By most measures, he was a real jerk at least a good portion of the time. (of course as with many people like that if you got to know him he was actually a pretty nice guy)

    So
    eventually some conflict got a little out of hand and on some poor
    pretext the forum managers banned him. It’s arguable whether he even
    really broke any of the rules. But he was labeled a troll and *most*
    users who were aware of his existence were probably even happy to see
    him go.

    Later he went onto another forum
    about the game and spouted his same crude brilliance and of course…
    he got banned again.  I know not how many forums he got banned from but
    now he resides in a small out of the way forum that only gets
    relatively small traffic primarily from the people who followed him all
    along.

    Now some of you are probably
    nodding to yourselves and thinking: “yup yup, serves him right!  He
    needs to learn to be more polite! His parents should have taught him better manners! He should be more careful with his
    language. How dare he insult the developers who are just doing their
    best? What’s wrong with him? Why can’t he express himself in a calm and
    reasonable way? Why’s he gotta be so dang difficult all the time?”

    I
    KNOW some of you are thinking that, because you’ve SAID as much before.
    I can’t tell me how many times I’ve read Xanga entries that say
    something along the lines of: “For Christ sake stop complaining about Xanga!”  And indeed, I’m sure I’ll read many more, because whenever the
    criticisms of Xanga start to fly, or whenever a user is not particularly
    careful in the way he or she states his or her negative opinion about
    some aspect of Xanga, it doesn’t take long before people rally to
    Xanga’s defense. And usually their defense is something along the lines
    of: “If you don’t like Xanga shut up and go away and if you must
    complain don’t be such a Dick about it!” 



    Can there be any doubt that when people believe this they would have
    seen the forum managers of my friend as having done the absolute right
    thing by banning him and making him go away?

    But I personally have a very different perspective:

    I think they should have hired him.

    Because
    when all was said and done, he was RIGHT. Again and again and again he
    was dead on. His understanding of the game was better than others. He’d
    studied it more. He clearly *cared* about it more than most people. He
    cared so much he refused to let it stay as it was. He wanted it to get
    better. He wanted a game he could love.  And he was clearly not going
    to rest or take no for an answer. He was the perfect critic.

    And
    better yet he brought together people who were similarly knowledgeable
    and skilled. He attracted the people who had the intelligence and
    awareness to be able to match him wit for wit. Exactly the kind of
    people who could keep him honest when he, in his zeal, on occasion went
    a little over board.

    This is EXACTLY the
    kind of person designers of any system need working for them. The kind
    of person who can keep THEM honest. And he was doing it all for free!! 
    The last thing they should have done was alienate him and make him go
    away.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that if
    they had listened to him, the game would be extraordinarily better than
    it is today. I might still be playing the game. I don’t. I can’t stand
    the way the game has stagnated instead of improving when there were so
    many ways it could have gotten better.  I guess I’ve been corrupted by
    that crazy forum dweller. I can’t go back to the way the game was
    before. Not when I know how much better it could be.

    And
    you know what? There are almost *always* people like that.  In every
    forum I go to. Maybe not all of them are as surpassing brilliant as
    this one person, and maybe a lot of them only *think* that they are.
    But there’s *lots* of people who just aren’t particularly polite in
    their criticism. But does that mean they should be ignored, shunned, or
    told to grow up? I don’t think so. I think they should be listened to
    just like everyone else, commiserate with the quality of their
    criticism, no matter the nature of their presentation.

    So I never agree with these posts that get posted that say stuff like:

    “Shame on you, Xanga critics!” 

    “How dare you not give the Xanga Team high praise for their work!”

    “Stop whining and be happy with what you have!”


    “Complain in private! We don’t want to hear it!”



    “Go away and join some other blog if you don’t like Xanga!”

    No…
    I say… whine away! Be as rude and as crude as you want! If your ideas
    are bad people will just ignore you. But if you have good ideas they’ll
    filter through and be seen and be heard and if the Xanga Team is smart
    they’ll follow up on them. They won’t ignore you just because you
    happen to be a little rough around the edges in your presentation.
    That’s part of what it means to be a professional at anything really.
    It’s part of your job.
    Your goal is to make the best product possible. It isn’t to rest on
    your laurels and feel good about yourself. It’s not to protect your own
    pride.

    You see there’s always going to be people with different dispositions. Some people are going to make criticisms like this:

    “Xanga
    Team you are so wonderful and I love you and please please please don’t
    take this as a criticism. But wouldn’t you possibly please consider
    getting rid of the mini system? I mean it’s awesome and amazing and was
    SUCH a great idea at the time, but it hasn’t been working out too well
    and now I think it’s time for it to go away.”

    And then they’ll list a bunch of reasons about what’s wrong with the mini system and close it up with something like:

    “But
    you’re all still wonderful! And I can’t imagine a better group of
    people running Xanga. You’ve done such amazing things. Xanga is the
    best blogging system EVER! Please don’t hate me!”

    But
    others are gonna wake up one day, after having lost their wife, gotten
    fired, gambled away their fortune, shot their dog, and having a
    horrible hang over and they are gonna log into Xanga and what will they
    see waiting for them? A Mini. And they’ll think. Fucking minis. And they’ll rattle off a post real quick and it’ll go something like this:

    “Listen
    up you boneheaded Xanga Team fuckups! The mini system is absolute ASS!
    They are so fucking retarded! If you don’t get rid of this system asap
    I swear I’ll hunt you down rip out your spines and shove it down your
    throats! And here’s what’s wrong with minis…”

    And
    then after that they’ll list perfectly reasonable well reasoned and
    logical criticisms of the mini system. After which they’ll follow it up
    with something like this:

    “And that’s why
    you HAVE to get rid of this shitty system! I mean I can’t believe you
    could be so stupid as to come up with this crap in the first place? God
    what is wrong with you! I could come up with something better in my
    sleep. Fucking change it. Right now. Or else!”

    And
    then at the very itty bitty bottom of their post long after you’ve
    stopped reading they might put a tiny little note that says something
    like this:

    “P.S. I love Xanga and I don’t know what I’d do without it.”

    You see? Now why would you find that offensive? They aren’t really *trying* to piss you off.

    That’s just the way they roll.

Comments (15)

  • Yep.

    That’s all, just: Yep.

     

    (Do you want a Mini? Bwaaah-hahahahahaa … )

  • @CanadianBroad - LOL. Can’t you tell how much I just LOVE minis?

    hmm… so I didn’t disagree with you on this post? Well maybe the next one will work.

  • @nephyo -  If at first you don’t succeed; try, try, again. Right?

    Hmmm, let’s see. Something I would disagree with. Well, you could always write a post about what a great president Dubya really is …

  • I’m annoyed by people who think they should ban people on forums or what have you just because they’re not very nice. I don’t think “nice” is necessary. If you can’t handle someone being a jerk to you online, how do you manage real life? In general, people aren’t going to be nice to you. I don’t think they really should be either in some cases. It’s certainly not a ban-worthy offense.

    Have you ever been on the Godawful fan fiction forums? Nearly everybody on that forum is like the guy you’re describing: brilliant jerks. (then there are the people who aren’t brilliant, but just jerks, but they’re usually easily ignorable.) And because they’re not censored in what they say or how they say it, their criticism is usually a lot more accurate and to the point. My writing is far better now than it would have been were I not a member on this forum. I’ve never even posted any of my work on their. They just will say what sucks, and what no one should ever do, then when they’re tired of that they move on to the little things that are just sort of obnoxious. It’s definitely worth any writer’s while to join that forum. (despite the name, it isn’t strictly about fan fiction. Actually, only a few the of the pages on there are even dedicated specifically to it. They go into everything – professional writing, games, TV, culture, websites. Really, if it’s out there, it’s been discussed on GAFF.)

  • I actually agree with you on this…I was on a reality tv forum, and they banned so many of the controversial users who were loud in their criticisms of others, and you know what? The forum is now so boring it lost a lot of people who originally posted there like myself. Sometimes a little flaming is good…

  • I couldn’t agree with you more. Why settle for mediocrity? That’s all you’ll ever have if you’re afraid to speak your mind. I know someone who got banned from Xanga even for speaking his mind. It won’t stop me. I’ve criticized Xanga before for bigotry, and I’ll continue to do it. I once had a boss who called me negative all the time for telling it how I saw it, needless to say eventually I lost that job. But honestly, the best day of my life was the day they fired me.

  • I have no problem with people complaining about Xanga…I just encourage people to do it constructively….

    sometimes when I read complainers posts, they don’t offer an alternative, or solution…they just complain.  That just makes me not sub to them if they continue that pattern everyday.

    Plus, sending the message also to thexangateam (cause they don’t read everyone’s blogs…duh) also can help them do their job better.

    As for the mini’s and credit thing….I think there’s going to be something to them….

    Otherwise…I’ll give you one just for fun…  :)

  • I disagree with you on this one.  While I don’t believe anyone should be banned from a forum for citing an opinion that goes against the company line, I do agree that people should be banned for being offensive and disrespectful to other users.  I believe one of the ideals of forum culture is to create a sense of community.  And while this person you refer to may have had some wonderful ideas and viewpoints, it would seem his nasty nature went against this ideal of community.  There is a way to disagree with someone without being a jerk and I have not patience or respect for people who act as such.

    Let’s be frank, there are many ways to get your point across or have a debate without demeaning other people.  To me, it’s simply bad form and there is no reason for it.  It causes dissention and I would venture to say that his ideas often fell on empty ears so to speak because of the way he delivered them.  If anything, I would expect you to be angry with this individual as it seems like he could be a revolutionary but instead chooses to distance himself from the very people who could instigate change (ie. developers). 

    We live in a politically correct world, whether we all like it or not.  Therefore, it is essential for us to recognize the environment in which we operate and work in that medium…at least if our end goal is to be heard.  Because it’s pretty obvious that he isn’t reaching the people who can affect change and that’s just ashame. 

  • @CanadianBroad - dubya is so awesome! I mean he’s like the best President  ev—- ARGH!! *throws up*  I just can’t do it!

  • @elvesdoitbetter - no I haven’t used the Godawful fanfiction stories. But that sounds like a really interesting site and I’m totally going to check it out.  I don’t really write fan fiction but I’m always looking for new resources to improve my writing.

    @buckeyegirl31 - exactly! Flaming isn’t *inherently* wrong. Trolling is wrong. Flaming is just a natural form of expression. Without it, life would be so very boring.

    @harmony0stars - hmm, well I don’t know of any Xanga bannings and I have no idea whether they were justified or not. I haven’t followed it. But I will say in defense of the administrators of all forums and websites everywhere, it CAN be really hard to tell the difference between deliberate instigation and merely being offensively vocal. The good forums are those that give people the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible.

    @edlives - constructive criticism is definitely better and should be encouraged.   But the complaints without solutions are not inherently harmful either. Sometimes there are problems I don’t *know* what the solution is to but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s important to bring those problems to the light. It’s important that users communicate their opinions as well as their ideas.

  • @nephyo - Exactly, an open and considerate dialog is always a good thing.  I think it’s ok for people to speak their minds and “say how it is”…but after being involved in many projects to assist many companies over the years…it’s not really what people say that gets the raised eyebrows and what not…it’s How they say it…
    The fact is, in these types of situations, most people know what the problem is, or have some idea…and everyone wants it fixed…
    The reality is, who wants to work with the guy with the addittude about it all….not many do.

  • @Aleichem - you disagree? W00T! Well my work here is done then! :D

    But anyway, I guess I’ll try to defend my position for the fun of it.

    My example  was somewhat extreme and idealized for humorous effect. The truth is the people I am referring to are never quite that absurdly offensive unless they are just doing it solely for shock value.  Mostly the person I was referring to, criticized the other users ideas and he did not stoop to attack their character until he was attacked first. But, whenever he was attacked first, he would be ruthless in his response, but still he always tried to focus on the ideas and not make it personal. He wasn’t by any stretch of imagination so far as I could tell solely trying to create controversy in order to disrupt the regular runnings of the forums

    And that’s an important distinction I think needs to be made. There are those who come to a forum or a blog and they attack and offend for the sole purpose of creating a disruption. They bring controversy and conflict for the sake of conflict, and they have no real interest in spreading ideas or concepts or learning or discussing anything. In so far as they make valid points, it is just done in order to give a pretense of caring so as to provide greater opportunity to rile people up.  These people are what we call internet “trolls” generally and yeah I’m not defending them in the least.

    They aren’t particularly different from in the real world though. We have demgogues who spout their hate filled bullshit who are given regular outlets on national radio and television. Yet we allow it? Why? Because in the end… the value of the freedom of expression has greater value to us as a society than even remaining a level of polite communication. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. If the government anyone starts “banning” these demagogues I’m leaving the country even though I hate them and don’t agree with anything they say.  Rather, I should think the problem with such behaviors is not the speaker, but the populace that enjoys it so much as entertainment that it becomes a rational econmic decision to stir up controversey for the sake of controversey. That’s how you make the most money.

    This is why in forums and such, I much prefer organic evaluation systems where the populace “rates” posts in order to float them up or down in visibility according to their interest and offensivity. The resulting of such systems is that no one is inherently censored, but in communities that value level headed dialectic, the members are given strong social signals by the ratings about how best to word their post to maximize visibility.  And similarly you can also have forums where it is “in style” to be a jerk and where that kind of language will increase the visibility of your post.  Either way is fine to me so long as it is a community value determined democratically by the society in question.

    But I digress, again referring to the forum member in question, I do not find myself angry at him only because I’ve known how the game developers of that particular game have treated people with radical dissenting ideas in the past: they basically ignore them. I mean sure they give lip service to listening to everyone, but the developers had made it fairly clear in their decisions and choices over the years that they were very change averse and they believed their own designed didn’t even have the flaws that others were ascribing to them. Further they seemed quite inclined to try and encourage others to accept their own opinions as the best simply because they were the developers. So in such an environment, to be heard at all, you almost *had* to be loud and aggressive or you’d be drowned out quickly by the mindless noise of the masses towing along the company line.

    We *do* live in a politically correct society but I’m not sure about the “whether we like it or not” part. To some extent watching our language is simply rational awareness and consideration of other peoples beliefs and values. It means respecting one another. At other times, though, so called “political correctness” is nothing more than a series of mindless “rules” to adhere that may or may not be valid for any particular situation and which can restrain and hinder intellectual pursuit and analysis.

    What is needed is a middle ground where we put as much attention to caring about ensuring that we not be so judgmental of one another when they do say things that hurt our feelings as we do to watching our language so as to ensure that we don’t unnecessarily hurt somebody’s feelings. Right now we put too much emphasis on the later and not enough on the former. 

    And it’s much worse online too, since we don’t really know who we are speaking to, yet people tend to judge one another by the same standard as if we are all supposed to be super experienced, conscientious, adults with the same pleasant demeaner. And so often people are attacked indiscriminantly for not fitting into that mold. No matter the fact that for all they know the person they could be attacking could be 8 years old or 80, let alone knowing anything about the person’s background or mental faculties.

    Anyway, I think I’ve rambled enough. I really don’t think we are disagreeing significantly here, I just think I’m a bit more tolerant of a little aggressive language than most people.

    Admittedly it still sucks bad when it’s leveled against me personally. But I’ll live and hopefully in such cases I’ll learn something in the process.

  • @edlives - honestly, at my old jobs I got soo sick of trying to find the way to *word * everything just so, in order to give the right impression and not raise alarm bells with the persons I was talking with.

    Really the issue here I think to some extent was irrational paranoia and over sensitivity in the work force. Also there’s the whole ladder aspect whereby you can increase your likelihood to advance by discrediting others and hence bringing attention to their words. When everybody is watching their backs and trying not to be “blamed” it’s just inherently a bad situation altogether. I should hope forums and online development projects don’t have that sense of excessive pride and infighting that makes them intolerant to alternative perspectives.

    But I know a lot of software development places unfortunately do. I’ve been there.

    Ahhh… good times.

  • @nephyo - for me it’s not really the choice of word’s (of course just lacking the common 4-letter ones)…my point was the attitude behind whatever someone is saying.
    We all can be frustrated by a broke system…but when someone’s attitude tends to spoil the tension and make things worse, that’s all I’m sharing.
    I agree, too, with your comments.

  • @nephyo - I don’t really write fan fiction either. Or read it for that matter. But browsing the boards you learn a lot about writing, from both the reader’s and the writer’s perspective. And there’s a lot moreon there than just writing too. I would definitely recomend chacking it out, whether you’re into fandom or not (especially the “Godawful Poetry and Prose” and “Why God, Why?” sections.)

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