April 4, 2009
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i don’t know about knowing…
First of all I learned from elvesdoitbetter’s xanga that this month is blog-every-day April or something like that. I might try and do that this month too. I won’t make any profound oaths or anything so no promises. If I give up in the middle feel free to strangle me in my sleep or whatever the proper punishment is for my disappointing my poor beloved readership.
Anyways, I went with Meryl Stryfe and Milly Thompson to see the movie Knowing today. It was… quite odd. It was a good well made story objectively speaking but it had a ton of logical disconnects in it. Things that were glossed over just to make the story move along. It also had lots of gratuitous special effects that probably cost a ton of money to make but served no purpose. But still it was enjoyable on a basic level for me.
But the more I think about it, thematically the story utterly pisses me off. I don’t want to give too many spoilers but the main idea of the story is the question of whether life is Determined or if it is Random. Determined is used as a synonym for having “meaning” or “purpose” or even “mattering” which right then and there makes it a false dichotomy that makes me want to pull my hair out just from hearing it. I could go on for hours about how determination has almost NOTHING to do with significance but I won’t bore you.
Still I could suspend my disbelief for that. It’s not like I haven’t seen and enjoyed tons of movies with which I disagreed with the fundamental premise. But this movie went too far. By the end of it, it is almost a condemnation of the idea of randomness which it equates quite strongly with Science. That’s absurd. The story even has undertones of suggesting a kind of intelligent design argument or at least a sort of purposeful distancing from evolution. That pisses me off.
The one line that sort of personifies the problems I had with the movie is this one scene where the main characters partially has deciphered the code and then his friend, also a scientist, says something like this: “My Scientific mind is telling me to stay as far away from this as I can and yours should be too”. WTF!!!! That line almost made me want to walk out. I’m no Scientists but wtf is up with portraying Scientists as closeminded cowards. The suggestion that being a Scientist makes you want to run AWAY from an unknown just because it suggests predetermination, is total BS. I can tell you quite honestly that most scientists I know would have been all over those numbers trying to decipher them, trying to extrapolate additional information, wanting to study the children t figure out the transmission mechanism. Most would think it was fascinating that aliens were speaking to them and when faced with evidence that proves their existence would not shirk away. Rather they’d be the ones on the front lines most excited about finding out what’s going on!
This Scientist bashing in movies is a horror. How can lay people have come so far from understanding what it means to have a scientific outlook on life? What is it with this thinking that Scientists have to reject extraordinary phenomena out of hand and unthinkinly. They *don’t*. They just reject believing in something without sufficient evidence and complete understanding.
Skepticism is not the same as stupidity.
Comments (80)
I LOVE that last line.
I read once, “Science is the refusal to believe on the basis of hope.” I think it’s one of the best working definitions out there.
The thing is, science these days has sort of been made out to be like a religion. That it’s a belief system and will reject out of hand anything that tries contradicts what it says to be true. Which is utterly ridiculous since that’s, in fact, the exact opposite of the way scientists work and think.
Good points all, though I’d be interested on your take on the Determined vs. Significant issue as well.
um who is meryl and who is milly?
dont forget: black pebble. im going to be expecting one a month before the day that the world is suppose to end.
Hollywood does love to bash scientists. When I see these movies I try not to dwell on them too much otherwise the movie is ruined for me. (i.e. National Treasure-great movie on the surface, but there are so many holes in it..)
@rianahntr - Well Milly Thompson is taller, but I suppose who is who depends on which of you depends primarily on which of you is more likely to prefer big guns.
Oh yes, don’t worry, the black pebbles will be everywhere! And don’t worry if you see weird creepy pedophile looking alien people staring at you. Those are just angels. They’ll all be leading you right to your proper spaceship so you and Walter can go off and start your new planet together. But whatever you do, DON’T EAT THE APPLE!
@nephyo - Millie and I were talking about pebbles and where we can get them since Indiana, you know, has many river beds and creeks and she brought up a good question: if we were to get the black pebbles from Lowe’s or something like that would that be considered cheating? Or would you say we’re just being resourceful?
And really: apples? If they’re green apples, I won’t be eating them. I prefer red delicious. But you know what: Walter is a non-practicing atheist. I don’t know if he’ll hear the whispering people … hmm.
@rianahntr - I think the key is the stones have to appear magically before you without you noticing who put them there. So if you buy your own stones from Lowes it’d be cheating but if she buys the black pebbles and leaves them secretly for you and you leave them secretly for her then it’s not cheating.
Just don’t eat any fruit from the Tree of Knowledge unless you’re sure God says it’s ok. Maybe you can get Walter a hearing aide that might help him pickup the whispering people. Also I don’t think the kids were particularly relgious in the movie.
@nephyo - but children are innocent! so …. and they heard the “whispering” or as they said it, “they heard the call” … or something like that.
hmm i’ll let millie know that we’ll have to hide the black pebbles from each other, etc …
@rianahntr - they were the “chosen” ones! prophets/seers or whatever. We don’t know if there weren’t any older chosen ones on any of the other space ships only without rabbits. gotta have 2 of each animal you know for it to be a proper arc. who knows, maybe you will be two chosen too. i know you’ve had plenty of appropriate visions…
@nephyo - and the thing about rabbits: they love to um multiply … a lot. so that new place will have lots of rabbits! i wonder if the other chosen ones were able to choose their “spirit animal” per se.
haha. my visions are weird. and they’re not visions. it just happens that some have happened. *shrugs*
@rianahntr - lol I’m sure that’s what lucinda thought at first too! Just wait for the people dressed all in blank to be staring at you through your window or across the field. Sure they might be your usual supply of stalker/perverts… but you never know!
I’m thinking you’d have bears. But they aren’t as cute and hard to carry. So maybe cats. Walter already has two and they breed a lot too don’t they?
@nephyo - his cats are neutered! so no breeding there… bears? hmmm perhaps koala bears since they don’t get too big?
i would hate to have those people appear in my visions. they’re creepy. i dont think i could ever trust them. not to mention they dont say much, either so how am i suppose to understand what they want me to do? whispering? maybe they can get into technology and just send emails instead… i’d prefer that to whispers.
@rianahntr - Koala bears would definitely suit you! But as for emails, no good I’m afraid. They didn’t seem like the communicative type. Also they didn’t seem too technologically adept. Then again they did know how to drive! So maybe they can learn computers too. Maybe you’ll get an email directing you to a webpage with a bunch of numbers on it. Each set of numbers automatically hyperlinking you to the proper associated disaster. Much more efficient that way!
But are you innocent enough to be willing to trust them even after they sent you emails? Or would you assume they are some sort of perverts trying to get you alone in the woods? I think whispering in your head might be the best way to gain your trust.
@nephyo - emails would be more efficient! think of how many more people they could have “chosen” !!! ooh webpages… i can see that. that would be very matrix-like. blue pill? red pill? hmmm.
well they WERE smart enough to drive so computers shouldn’t be too far behind.
i stand by this: receiving whispers inside my head = crazy. i for one know for a fact that i dont deserve to be in an insane asylum. i vote for emails. or letters for that matter.
@rianahntr - letters?!? no way! Post Office would lose your mail three or four times. By time you get it’d be October 19th and you’ll be too late going on a chaotic rampage like all of the other humans on the planet to remember to check your mail. And even if you did remember, it might not get delivered! I mean the Post Office says neither rain or sleet nor snow nor hail but they don’t say ANYTHING about Armageddon.
i think if it’s a mass email you have the problem everybody will think it’s SPAM! Then again maybe that will be the test to see who is chosen
If you drink enough Scotch before you read the email, I’m sure you’d be one of the few who believe in it ^_^
@nephyo - you bring up a good point. we should clear that up with the us postal service and make sure that they do deliver still even on armageddon.
now about that scotch: i didn’t quite catch the label, did you? i’d have to stock up on it since nicholas cage’s character drank so many.
@rianahntr - I’m sure the post offfice would LOVE to get that phone call inquiry. Yeah, they’re sure to take us REAL seriously.
I didn’t catch the lable, but I’m sure the brand of scotch isn’t that important. You can stock up on all your favorites. Also you can check again when you get the DVD. Just remember to over pour and spill some of it, otherwise you’ll never see the 9/11 numbers.
@nephyo - let’s see if we can get someone to ask the post office that question.
overpour? no way! that’s wasteful. you know the ring from the glass of Scotch? it *hinted* … im pretty sure that was planned by the whispering people.
surely, they had to find a single dad who taught astrophysics and a son who wears hearing aide … “weird noises” indeed. if i had an hearing aide, and heard that, i would have begged my dad a new one!
@rianahntr - so you’re saying the whispering people are willing to waste scotch? Now I KNOW they’re EVIL! Forget everything I said. You and Walter should stay here and share your scotch with your closest friends until the fire consumes us all.
don’t forget the Dad’s father was a priest. And the kid went to the SAME school as Lucinda. Can the alien/angels be any more obvious?
Maybe it is genetic and maybe the Dad did hear the voices when he was a kid, but as he grew up he started liking the alcohol too much and you know drowned it out with the Scotch.
@nephyo - Share with friends? Oh, alright. But, Walter is more a brandy drinking person than Scotch.
True… I wonder if there’s a symmetry that I’m not seeing. Coz Lucinda went crazy, Abbey didn’t. John’s father is a priest, his son became an Atheist. Hmm.
@rianahntr - well it’s the end of the world! That’s not the time to be picky about the alcohol!! Break out the brandy AND the Scotch! Also vodka, champaigne, hard liquor, beer, wine, irish carbombs, butter shots, margaritas… I’m sure you can come up with many more. Also other controlled substances. cigarettes, cigars, chewing tobacco, pot, dxm, shrooms, etc. etc. I mean we’re gonna die anyway? right?
Don’t know about symmetry. Both Abbey and Caleb’s immediate parents were single parents and both unbelievers in their own way. They lacked faith. But THEIR parents were both believers. So maybe there is symmertry. Your mother is a believer so maybe it has to be one of your children who are the chosen ones.
@nephyo - hmmmmmm…. so my progeny will be the chosen one? and i get to stay and witness the end? man, i hope that’s false coz i really dont want to be around when the world ceases to exist.
so have a party to celebrate the end of our lives? i can do that. but all that alcohol bought by myself = no. people WILL have to chip in.
@rianahntr - well if the pattern matches the movie you’ll die in a car crash on the last day and thus avoid seeing the end of the planet. That matches your dreams too unfortunately. There will be a black pebble there too.
See? All the more reason to stay home and have a PARTY instead! We’ll stock up for days in advance. Don’t worry. I’ll chip in. I’ll buy food snacks and ice cream. Don’t worry, I won’t forget the cheetos!
@nephyo - oh yea car crash .. but in my dream i wasnt hit by another vehicle..
yes, please dont forget the cheetos!
@rianahntr - white cheddar? crunchy? puffs? twisted puffs? red hot? any other kinds?
I tend to prefer the puffs and basic crunchy. I also like white cheddar popcorn.
And what about chocolate?
@nephyo - yes to all of the above! and of course must bring chocolate. i prefer milk chocolate whereas my roommate likes dark chocolate and your roommate likes white chocolate….
@rianahntr - So all kinds of chooclate it is! i’ll have to bring some of the cholocate in advance so that Milly can bake up some delicious foods including them in time for armageddon. ^_^ Maybe you’ll bake some of your infamous brownies too
@nephyo - oooh brownies… i want some. maybe i can ask walter to bake me some. man, we’re all going to die very full and very inebriated when the world ends.
@rianahntr - Can you think of a better way to go? Sounds perfect to me.
@nephyo - hmmm…. we have strayed from the topic…
@rianahntr - hmmm it appears so. Shall we attempt to get back on topic or stop for today and continue this discussion another time?
@nephyo - let’s attempt to go back on topic… and if we can’t, we can try another day
@rianahntr - ok so back to Knowing then right? How about the pebbles? Do you have any idea what the significance of them might be? Did they have a point being in the movie?
and more on the general philosophical level do you think life is determined or random?
@nephyo - well the pebbles are black, and shiny so im thinking water. and water cleanses so some kind of spiritual reborn maybe?
as for a point … hmm. ill have to think on that. and life is a mix of both i think. predetermined and random. maybe. not really sure.
@rianahntr - water? well that is the opposite of fire which is what ends up destroying the world. But why do the aliens keep giving everyone stones? To cleanse them in preparation of leaving? Maybe then all Nicholas Cage’s character would have needed to do was keep a few more of the stones on him to be cleansed enough to go with them to the new planet?
Yeah the movie did seem to suggest that it had to be all or nothing. Either everything is predetermined or *completely* random. I wonder if we can’t have some things that are determined even thought most things are random.
@nephyo - hmm if you want to do the whole water/fire thing, think of LOTR. those themes were used too. as for pebbles… water AND fire both can change the surface of the planet. one brings life, while the other “kills” …
as for random vs predetermined, who knows? coz i surely dont.
@rianahntr - I can see that in LOTR definitely. Saruman’s Isengaard is defeated by water. Water washes away the ring wraiths chasing them. The ring was lost in water. Aragorn is saved when he falls in water. The balrog is clearly a creature of fire. The eye of of Sauron is wreathed in flames. But it’s sort of odd that fire saves the day in that the hobit casts the ring into the fires of mount doom to destroy it. I guess water doesn’t destroy and no power was strong enough to purfiy the One Ring.
But as for Knowing, maybe it was the black aspect of the stones that was key. The stones being black creates an image of the darkness of space from which the aliens came and the aliens were like beings made up of light. so maybe their communication mechanism involved transmitting light to the black stones that absorb the light. Maybe that’s how they effect reality? That would explain why they were giving them to everyone.
@nephyo - well, they weren’t giving the stones to everyone.. just to those who heard the whispers and well those who just died? think about it: the airplane crashing: flames, ash… and it was raining.
@rianahntr - and i guess scotch is liquid like water. earth. water. light are symbols of good in this movie. time capsule is covered in Earth. Also plants and animals. Rabbits. A door made of “wood” has the last clue.
@rianahntr - fire is also generally seen as chaotic which meshes with the anti-randomness themes
@nephyo - @nephyo - well… i suppose so.
@rianahntr - but why did they give the girl the stone on top of the pay phone, BEFORE she died?
@nephyo - to let her know that they are taking the kids? or to let her know that the kids are with them? idk. perhaps instead of sending an angel of death a black pebble takes its place?
@rianahntr - but giving her that black pebble really resulted DIRECTLY in her death. It drove her over the edge AND it made her turn away from the phone just in time to see the car driving away. And that in turned caused her to chase the car and get hit and die. If she hadn’t gotten the stone she wouldn’t have looked back until it was too late to chase after them and might have survived. And surely if the angels can hijack a car they could just as easily have disabled it until John arrived and convinced the four of them to go together? The black stone makes the aliens seem particularly evil to me. Like they were trying to drive abbey’s mother crazy. that’s just wrong.
@nephyo - well hmmm.. i guess she was already on edge. after all, she had a “crazy” mom that heard voices ALL THE TIME. but i do concur with you. that black pebble made them evil.. idk. it IS wrong, but i guess for every good, there has to be a bad?
@rianahntr - that may be true in the abstract but surely the aliens could have at least TRIED to explain things to the parents before kidnapping their children! If they couldn’t talk directly to the parents they could have at least spoken to the children in clear terms and had the children explain it to their parents. Sure there parents might have disbelieved, but the whispering people should have given them a chance to believe before hitting the mother with a big truck. Don’t you think?
@nephyo - perhaps but even her mother knew that she was going to die…. lucinda knew her daughter was going to die at that time. it was predetermined. remember?
@rianahntr - so just because things are predetermined gives them an excuse to kidnap and murder? Really? Then maybe tomorrow I should go on a killing, raping, and pillaging spree. When the police arrest me I’ll say in my defense “it’s all predetermined”.
@nephyo - dont forget to leave a signature … like a black pebble. and oh, you must wear all black clothing too! and when you open your mouth, light comes out…
@rianahntr - haha i think i could rig something like that with a flashlight in my mouth. but i’m not nearly as pale as those guys. that i can’t really fix.
@nephyo - hmmmm well then you can the whispering people “brotha”
@rianahntr - lol me and my whispering crew will send whispering raps into the heads of unsuspecting children everywhere! maybe that’s why the kids had trouble understading. they coudln’t break down the slang of of the l33t rhymes
@nephyo - exactly! dont forget to rap about philopsophy etc etc … it’ll be most awesome.
@rianahntr - i’m not good at freestyling. you’ll have to help cowrite my raps so I’ll have them in time. One song will be called the Determinism Gone Wild. Another will be called Fire in the Forest. And another called Spaceship Blues. got any suggestions for lyrics?
@nephyo - um no. no ideas for lyrics. drawing a blank.
@rianahntr - doh. maybe we can do a song like Dead and Gone where I come up with the rap and you sing the chorus in between. if you can’t do it I’ll have to get someone like Utada Hikaru…
@nephyo - chorus i can do… we’ll have to brainstorm ideas
@rianahntr - maybe something starting with like: “I turn my head to the East see a black pebble by my side. Turn my head to the West still another pebble by my side…”
@nephyo - but what’s the beat? how does it go?
@rianahntr - maybe something a little techno-ish? i dunno i suck at music. i might need to find another non-stage job on the whisperer band tour.
@nephyo - hmmm i prefer ballads.
@rianahntr - i also quite like ballads. but do they really fit creepy aliens? i guess they work for angels…
@nephyo - welll…. the angels DO become celestial bodies that look remarkably like angels soooo… maybe??
@nephyo - i meant to type that the aliens changed into their celestial bodies that looked remarkably like angels but it didnt come out that way…
@rianahntr - so maybe some sort of hybrid song that starts off more creepy and becomes more beautiful and ballad like by the end. It’d be cool if you had a song that if you heard it through a filter sounded like creepy whispering but when you removed the filter became beautiful. that would really fit.
@nephyo - let’s aim for something more haunting than creepy… haunting songs tend to linger and leave a bigger mark anyways.
@rianahntr - like what? what would be an example of a haunting song?
@nephyo - “my immortal” is haunting… and in a way, so is “passion (after the battle)” i guess it would also depend on what you think is haunting, too
@rianahntr - both good songs, amongst my favorites, but I don’t think they really fit the whispering people. it can be haunting but it needs to be a little creepier too. not sure what song would fit that bill.
@nephyo - hmmm…. we’ll have to brainstorm.
@rianahntr - maybe i’ll use pandora to try and find something
@nephyo - good plan!
@rianahntr - of course. I came up with it after all. Weirdly though I can’t find passion after the battle on pandora or even sanctuary. grrr
@nephyo - well that sucks. my ipod has it ….
@rianahntr - mine too. but i wanted pandora to show me similar songs…
@nephyo - you could try last.fm
@rianahntr - maybe. i tend to prefer pandora. it finds closer related songs.
@nephyo - oh i see
@rianahntr - indeed
@nephyo - yup